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ElMatematico

Let's discuss character progression in dofus.

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Hello. I've been thinking about this topic for a while, interested in other people's opinion.

 

Back a few years, I used to run dopples daily to get scrolls, which meant making my characters a bit stronger bit by bit. After they were all scrolled, some time later kolossium came out with spell scrolls, and then some time later the doploon to kolossoken exchange came out, so another period of character growth for my team. It was nice getting more range/less cooldown on utility spells that weren't a priority before, or getting better off element damage for the random time they came handy. Back to the present, I started raising an eni and a sac for fun. I almost fully scrolled them with whatever doploons I had left. What's missing I'll have to buy because breeding is not fun and I refuse to do it. With spell points being gone, these characters only advance by levelling up, by getting a few spikes in power when a useful early spell gets levelled or a more useful variant is unlocked. The gradual progression that I could make parallel to levels is gone.

 

Then there's equipments, of course. I have all crafting professions at 200, but it's not much help because I don't have any magus levelled (the highest is costumagus ~140, courtesy of the recent double xp). But the thing is, I don't like maging, it's frustrating to depend on luck (and a lot of time/runes) for everything to stay in place. This means that in order to progress in this game, my only chance is to buy stuff, and I have no control over what's in sale. I simply can't progress in this game by doing the content I enjoy, and that's a sad realization. This stuck even more because this new characters aren't really that different from my old: Having them "catch up" with their 1000+ quests and 10000+ achivement points difference does nothing other than allow them to have the same title and ornament.

 

There is only one exception, which is Frigost. Doing stuff there gives you access to areas, means of transportation and unlocks buying rare resources (which have fallen off a bit since new equipment has been introduced). They did try to keep post 200 progress with the dungeon achievement condition, but it was implemented poorly. Back then some classes were too outdated, a lot of them lacked specific utilities for PvM (specifically, good positioning spells). With the current state of the game it would be reasonable (maybe that's why they kind of tried with legendary equipments, but too little, too late). Having dofus being unexchangeable was also done without much thought, so the backlash made them yield. Instead of locking the dofus behind quests, they could have done something like only locking part of the bonus. For example, emerald gives vit to everyone, but shield only to those who did the quest.

 

I also want to bring up that alignmnent orders used to give buffs, but it was scrapped. This is a perfect example of quest-related character progression AND customization that I'd like to see. You do quests/achievements and now you are a bit stronger.

 

What do you think? Do you like how things are now, that you can rush a new character to 200 and equip it to be endgame instantly? Does anybody even care about raising characters or everyone just focuses on level 200 content and then filling the blanks? And about the posibility of getting buffs from quest and achievements?

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El-Matematico 200 agi osa

El-Psicologo 200 str/cha zobal

El-Cronologo 200 cha xelor
El-Geologo 200 int sadi
- Rubilax -
 

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I agree.

I think this is actually a sizeable part of the reason I haven't really played for 1-2 years now: I used to work towards new sets, scrolls etc. by doing dopples and kollo fights and then using better items to do harder quests and dungs.

Now, I feel like all the more 'minor' goals are gone. I don't need new sets, spell points don't exist, and I can get through most dungs if I could find a team to go with, so all that's left is the quests. That leaves less for me to do, and more importantly a far smaller variety of things to do that I enjoyed.

Raising characters was always important to me, and that was one of my biggest concerns pre spell-rework.

I have had many documents planning exactly when I'd spend my spell points on what, sets planned for levels like level 50, level 80, level 100, level 120, level 140, etc. - exactly when I'd switch builds, when I'd use dopple reset...

I never was the kind of guy who would rush straight to high levels.

And that's why this is such a big issue for me: I could work towards things like scrolls and money by doing dopples, kollo and treasure hunts while just chatting to friends and guildmates, and take any opportunities that came up to make some quest progress, join an exp group or do a dungeon - which, sometimes, was less than weekly.

Now I feel like there's nothing really worth doing in those inbetween times, and starting new characters for the progression experience is gone too.

 

I do feel like I'm heavily biased though.

 

 

 

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Lvl 200 (Omega 40ish?) osa.  Guild: Sunrising (probably relatively temporary?) -I'm currently inactive. - Alliance: Idk, but usually ends up being CYGNI/Cygnus. With lv 140 rogue as an alt (I have others but all are sub 100 and never used). On Echo (was Shika).

Also a lv 8x Iop and 5x Feca on Wakfu, member of Storm Troopers on Remington (if it still exists, haven't checked in a while)  I have finally been kicked!

Add me on steam (Sommanker) and Battle.net (Sommanker#2834) and Discord (Sommanker#1592). I play a multitude of other games.

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Latest sig update: 31/12/18 or 12/31/18 if you're an american.

 

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Removing all the "hated" grind is a very bad concept.

 

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Eniripsa Winged-one Pandawa Hubabuba Enutrof  Uncommon Rogue Cra Maiklnait
~*All professions 200*~

 

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While I agree with some things that have been said here, I myself don't mind being able to rush a new character straight into the endgame. This is because in my opinion, the high level content is infinitely more interesting than the low level stuff (more unique dungeons, a bigger variety of spells, better gear, better quests, ...). That's not to say that the low level stuff is bad, but I've personally "been there done that". The supergrind was fun for the first time, but I enjoy being able to skip it now that I have less time to play. I personally don't see the value in doing the same low level quests/dungeons over and over again everytime I want to play a new class.

 

I also think that a lot of quests still hold a certain value: you can save so much money if you do the dofus quests on a new character. An ivory dofus is still like 80mk, ochres and cloudies are like 40mk, ice is 20mk and the ebony isn't even available in the market yet. Doing these quests instead of buying everything everytime does give you an advantage. 

 

I do understand where you're coming from though: the last few updates have gradually removed a lot of features that people who enjoy the grind will miss, making some aspects like doing dopples almost useless. I think Dofus doesn't attract many new players anymore, so they're trying to keep their old players by adding features the majority of them (maxed out players) will enjoy.

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4 hours ago, winged-one said:

Removing all the "hated" grind is a very bad concept.

 

 

Indeed, just like with most games it was a case of a vocal minority against the concept of the grind leading the public perception of what the playerbase thought of the grind attached to elements of the game. I had no problem with the grind, while I took no part in it there was always the option to exchange goods and services with players that partook in the grind, stimulating the economy and creating a timesink for all involved which overall was a good thing.

 

Ankama is certainly pandering to a playerbase that does not wish to quest, grind or do anything related to this. As you've noted @ElMatematicoevery gated part of the game has been removed minus frigost which is such a bore. While I do not believe that people should be forced to quest (just note pvp'ers disgust every time a powerful new dofus comes out and they're forced to do any form of pvm content) I also believe there should be some additional, but not essential, bonuses gated behind quest/pvm content, creating some incentive beyond another ornament that will never be used. I'd like to see the return of time periods of new gear having dungeon restrictions and more limited achievement mat rewards personally, much like dofus' currently have. PVM content is rarely given a chance outside those who wish to complete a quest objective and get all 90 achievement points from it then to never come back again.

 

After writing this I come to the sad realisation that Ankama is a company with declining dev quality, losing a lot of great devs over the last year(s) as well as a team that is constantly playing musical chairs on projects due to Tots managerial incompetence leaving Dofus with a lacking core team to work on new features for the game. I wonder how much content we'll see over this year as well as the quality of improvements to an increasingly poorly client....

Edited by Coopers
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3 hours ago, Fravanlan said:

I also think that a lot of quests still hold a certain value: you can save so much money if you do the dofus quests on a new character. An ivory dofus is still like 80mk, ochres and cloudies are like 40mk, ice is 20mk and the ebony isn't even available in the market yet. Doing these quests instead of buying everything everytime does give you an advantage. 

 

Yes, but dofus have also lost their value with so much competition for the 6 slots. In most cases, getting a dofus is not a direct improvement but a trade-off. This has also been a theme for the last 5 years or so, new stuff is slightly better than the old stuff but the actual improvement comes from being able to customize and specialize more. Get that new hat that gives 10 more int and lose the useless AP reduction for valuable MP reduction. Change these 2 parts for these other 2 parts and lose 20 in raw stats but get 20% extra resistances where it matters, etc. The difference is so small, that new average equipment isn't better than old maged equips, and that was also one of my points: optimization means maging, which is twice removed from the gameplay (you play the game to get mats/kamas, then use those mats/kamas to get runes and mage).

 

The thing is, I don't believe anyone at Ankama cares too much. It's too common that widespread backlash or abuse is answered with some general fix that kills the problem by the root and causes collateral damage. Examples:

  • Profession update introduced very powerful healing items and buffed old ones, but recipes were generally too complex. Solution was to nerf the whole system to the ground, healing items go to 210 HP or 570 energy max, recipes are ultra dumbed down. Why not keep the complex recipes AND add simple, weak recipes to the mix?
  • Conditions on all new equipments prove to be too exclusive, people can't access the new stuff at all unless leeched. Solution is remove conditions altogether. Why not gate some of the equipment and leave other free? Why not putting a condition on some of the stats, which are unlocked after the achievement?
  • People can't pass dungeons because they're too long or complex. Solution: Nerf everything except for Krobes to the point where some fights have no real danger (merkator, klime, nileza...) Why not keep an optional hard mode with the previous content?
  • Since their introduction, idols have only been nerfed. Every change they had was about nerfing a synergy. No new idols added, no extra synergies for neglected idols.

They also botched their end of year content 3 times (Osamodas dimension, rushed Ohwymi, the third tower in Cania). Who cares right now if those things were released on december or not? "A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad" (by Shigeru Miyamoto) must be one of the truest things said about game design.

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El-Matematico 200 agi osa

El-Psicologo 200 str/cha zobal

El-Cronologo 200 cha xelor
El-Geologo 200 int sadi
- Rubilax -
 

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Dofus has got to be one of the mechanic richest strategic games I've ever seen or heard of. Each class not only has tons of spells that upon a certain condition become more powerful (AoE spells, Telefrag, movement spells, etc.), but mobs also have different mechanics; we can't have a bunch of Gobballs scaled to the player's level, always with 4 MP and using Contusion. I agree with most of what you're saying, but things like Idol nerfs HAD to be done. We had 8 Sadida teams clearing a mob in under a minute with 500 Score Idols, same goes with Cras. Lately there's talk of a Strength Panda soloing a high loot Xelorium mob with 300+ Idols on with 7 leechers. That's not healthy for the game, those are just loopholes to be abused, and should've been removed. Having started from nothing 4 times, and leeching guild XP from time to time, I can surely say that XP is more balanced than it has ever been. If a player wishes to sell ogrines to get to endgame, it's fine with me. Are we gonna act like Dofus is the only game where you can buy your way to the top? In fact, I think that's healthy for the company. Leveling by quests and achievements, however, is also a great option, and you'll never fall behind. 

 

What I'm trying to say - Dofus has TONS of mechanics. Given the massive amount, there's bound to be place for abuse, and Ankama is right in nerfing Idols and farm teams. In my eyes Dofus has gone from character growth to player growth. You're not a good player for grinding out shit and having all the best gear, you're a good player if you know all the mechanics you're up against, how all the classes work, how PvM works, heck, even how quest fights work. This sort of player growth is in my opinion a lot cooler and isn't something you can buy, it's something you have to do and learn yourself, no video will truly teach you, no kamas will buy you that knowledge. Character growth is non-existent. I can go in a fight, use Bark on my Ouginak, and some geared out, Ivory'd players still have no clue what it does, and still release me despite the Unshakable state. I think this is actually one of the things Ankama have done right - rewarding work by making you a better player, not a more powerful character.

Edited by Abraham Van Helsing
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14 hours ago, ElMatematico said:

Yes, but dofus have also lost their value with so much competition for the 6 slots. In most cases, getting a dofus is not a direct improvement but a trade-off. This has also been a theme for the last 5 years or so, new stuff is slightly better than the old stuff but the actual improvement comes from being able to customize and specialize more. Get that new hat that gives 10 more int and lose the useless AP reduction for valuable MP reduction. Change these 2 parts for these other 2 parts and lose 20 in raw stats but get 20% extra resistances where it matters, etc. The difference is so small, that new average equipment isn't better than old maged equips, and that was also one of my points: optimization means maging, which is twice removed from the gameplay (you play the game to get mats/kamas, then use those mats/kamas to get runes and mage).

just copy/paste most things from the huge blizzard MMO and we're fine. (and yes, most things would fit here)

No clue why Ankama is trying it the other way all these years, without success...

 

Add random rare drops, make dungeons interesting again. The "grind" wasn't to bad, except the competition against bots that they was unable to handle, sadly...

Remove level 199-200 XP gap, give us a level 400. Design new content around this, higher stats! PROGRESSION!. It doesn't matter if we one-shot gobbals again don't buff old crap to the top and annoy us to the ground x)

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Eniripsa Winged-one Pandawa Hubabuba Enutrof  Uncommon Rogue Cra Maiklnait
~*All professions 200*~

 

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6 hours ago, winged-one said:

just copy/paste most things from the huge blizzard MMO and we're fine. (and yes, most things would fit here)

No clue why Ankama is trying it the other way all these years, without success...

 

Add random rare drops, make dungeons interesting again. The "grind" wasn't to bad, except the competition against bots that they was unable to handle, sadly...

Remove level 199-200 XP gap, give us a level 400. Design new content around this, higher stats! PROGRESSION!. It doesn't matter if we one-shot gobbals again don't buff old crap to the top and annoy us to the ground x)

The Minowang drop in Halloween and Crown drop during this event are perfect examples of these. If they legit add some sick looking rare ceremonial items/pets/petsmounts to end game dungeons they will create an infinite amount of replayability with minimal effort. I would legit run all those dungeons like crazy for those drops.

 

One thing I don't like about the "looks" in dofus, there is not enough pretige/rarity. You either mimi a common item everybody knows, use a ceremonial item that everyone can buy for 50kk, or lastly buy some item that is long gone from the game or came with an event for 300m if you REALLY want to look different (which usually don't even look good, its just rare). With the addition of rare items to end-game bosses hardcore PvM'ers can also obtain some prestige too. 

 

Not to forget our pvper friends, can also add the same thing to pvp. Make some sick looking ceremonials that only drop from kolossiums/perceptor/koth fights. So that people putting time/effort to these parts of the game can show-off.

 

EDIT: But also why bother when you can sell those sick ceremonials for ogrine/euros 😞

Edited by Azaknami

 

 

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On 1/12/2019 at 1:07 PM, Fravanlan said:

I think Dofus doesn't attract many new players anymore, so they're trying to keep their old players by adding features the majority of them (maxed out players) will enjoy.

I hate the new features, the only way of doing any of the end game stuff now is to have your own super team. Even some of the quests I've found impossible to do. Please don't say get in a team, been there tried that and despite trying I haven't managed to get an invite in the last few months to do anything.

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