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I take the opportunity to make a small clarification in relation to the future new kind of mounts, so as not to create too much disappointment when they come into play, they will not be flying mounts that will fly over obstacles. Their movement animations will be different from those used for the current mounts, but it will only be a cosmetic specificity.


Private paddocks are expensive, very expensive, and their access is limited by guilds, not to mention the collectors of paddocks... These measures will mechanically increase the demand for paddocks in the medium term. The chances of access were already unfair, but I have a thought for future new players who will probably never be able to touch a private paddock even if they wish.

This is a "default" that will not be corrected by this update.
We do not want to multiply the number of private paddocks in play, we already consider that they occupy too much space and the majority of them are not very well integrated into the game (they are mainly located in dedicated areas that are empty of activities and utility for other players).
However, it must be considered that the public paddocks will become the equivalent of private paddocks (25 places in total) whose access will be free but with a slightly reduced efficiency.
Access to "private" paddocking (in the sense: the possibility of configuring the paddock) will be considerably easier compared to the current one.


The combo of modifications on the frequency of transmission of traits and on the reductions of reproductions makes me wonder if it will be statistically possible to transmit a given trait of the first generation to the last generation...

The announced values are not necessarily definitive, but our objective is indeed to have traits that are lost over the reproductions instead of having traits that are multiplied over the reproductions.
We believe that this approach makes it possible to maintain a much more sustainable breeding system.


Another concern you do not talk about: if the reduction of breeding volumes is so effective, will the consanguinity of the Seemyools still have place? This mechanism is often denounced as being particularly opaque, and requires the breeders to use external software to manage their mounts.

The mechanism of genetic collisions present on the Seemyools will be preserved and used for the new species of mounts.
It certainly requires a lot of investment for players who want to optimise their Seemyool farms, but it is an effective mechanism to limit the industrialization of breeding them.
We do not intend to remove this mechanism for the Seemyools.
We do not wish to apply it to the Dragoturkeys because it seems interesting to us to preserve species of mounts with specificities and different levels of accessibility.



Moreover you should perhaps take the opportunity to review the gestation time of dragoturkeys, very short in the first generations, very long among the last.

What would justify such a change?
What would be the positive impact?


First of all, for the Roundtable format: it is a very good initiative to trust this format, but... you invited new faces? The debate should not run out of steam in a few days.

 

We've recruited breeding specialists for this round table. They will intervene gradually.


Storing the mounts. The certificate system is not at all ergonomic (to use/sort), and just for generation Achievements, it goes easily on more than 200 mounts. So with 3 species... 250 starts to seem pretty small. Can we increase the number of places with omega levels? Or put a limit of 200 Dragoturkeys, 200 Seemyools and 200 Birdsies? Moreover: the sheds are shared, what about the paddocks (if a 2nd person accesses the public paddock)

We can not take into account the levels (Omega or not) of the characters on the account that are not connected.
So if the number of places in a shed depends on the level (Omega) of the current character, it implies that low-level characters will only remove mounts instead.
Example: with an Omega 300 character, the player has 275/300 mounts in his shed, he then uses a level 150 character and he finds himself at 275/150 mounts in his shed which prevents him from adding new ones, while only being able to withdraw them.

This is a mechanism that we had considered in addition to the link to the account because it potentially increases the number of places in a shed while significantly penalizing the alts.
But we are afraid that this measure is too restrictive for the breeders, they are potentially numerous to use secondary characters to do breeding (I do not have the possibility of having statistics on this point).

For the total number of places in the paddocks, we are reluctant to increase it because we have gradually increased it since the creation of breeding and this has contributed to the appearance of industrial breeding.

We are aware that this is not a very healthy restriction because the players skirted around it with certificates, but increasing this storage limit will necessarily create a draw and will lead to an overall increase in the size of the farms and their production.
However, this is a point on which we have not made a final decision and we intend to think about it.


Beyond storing by character, the question now arises of multi-account storage: more sheds, more spaces in paddocks. Aside from gaining subscriptions, multi-accounting can completely bypass the limitations, and have devastating advantages.

Multi-accounting circumvents all account limitations.
This is already the case and unfortunately
it will not change with this update.
I do not see any solution to this concern of multi-accounting breeding, they will always have maximum sized sheds and paddocks, higher than those used by the monopolists.

It is currently possible to make new characters to bypass some of the restrictions, but it is not infinitely feasible (without having to obtain additional character slots) and this leads to game mechanics that we do not want to see anymore: multiplication of characters and the identical repetition of actions between several characters.

 


For me, it's really not much. Admittedly, it is necessary to limit the industrialization, but one passes from 130 places to 25, with public paddocks that lose effectiveness and require an investment of resources?
For me, this is absolutely not viable unless accessibility to private paddocks is drastically revised: is it normal for ordinary people to have one to several private paddocks? Are public paddocks only for the very small breeder who wants to finish his Emerald Dofus Quest?

 

It must be considered that the public paddocks will become the equivalent of free private paddocks (but with slightly reduced efficiency).
I tend to see this as a very big advantage for breeders who did not have private paddocks before.

Public paddocks should never have been used for industrial breeding, public paddocks are designed to allow any player to test the breeding functionality and operate a reasonable breeding operation that could ideally be a source of honourable income (everything is relative...).

If it is necessary to increase the number of places of the public paddocks and to reduce their penalty (in 2.47 we foresee 20%), we are ready to consider it, but this does not mean that we should make the private paddocks obsolete.

Keep in mind that the breeding market can not absorb a large production of mounts from most players.

Breeding can only be viable globally if it is run by a minority of players.
It is the same thing for all the activities in the game, we can not hope to sell the product of an activity to other players if the majority of the players do that activity and thus already have the product of this activity.

The right systems must be found to ensure that the majority of players do not enter the breeding market. I agree that the difficult (and mechanically highly questionable) access to private paddocks is not the most relevant mechanism to regulate the number of breeders on the market.
It is for this reason that we focus on the need to use Breeding Items as the main method to regulate the overall production of mounts.
However, we need other safeguards, we think it is too risky to put everything on the destruction of Breeding Items.


The -20% penalty: is it really necessary knowing that we lost a lot of places and we must invest in Breeding Items?

We think it is necessary for private paddocks to keep a significant interest (they are very expensive now).
But it is a value that we could possibly reduce.


I feel that everything is done to push to the private paddocks. Why not, basically. But... the accessibility of the private paddocks (leader of an old guild) is not at all up to the task. If you can not/do not want to change this accessibility, then you have to help the public paddocks a little bit, that ask for Breeding Items anyway and are therefore not "free".

I do not understand your explanation. The public paddocks will become the equivalent of private paddocks, but free (no purchase of paddocks needed) and with a slight penalty. They will be very close to the current private paddocks.
We are not trying to make public paddocks obsolete (see previous answers).


The randomness in colour: it is very frustrating not to be able to mix two colours. Very, very frustrating, and really superfluous: with all the measures that limit the industrial breeding, amateur breeders looking to finish their generation Achievements (breeding 200 mounts) are already heavily impacted. Perhaps it would be time to reduce this constraint, so that the breeding is an exact science instead of being a die roll where 5 faces are 1. For example, to increase to 50% the probability that a Dragoturkey A coupled with a Dragoturkey B gives a Dragoturkey AB, forget the genealogy of grandparents, etc. This may be against the point of "certainty", but since breeding is nerve-racking, it is time to remove the frustration that accompanies it.

Taking into account the entire family tree seems to be an important and essential mechanism for the breeding system.
The system is not random with correctly selected ancestors.
The system relies on "just" probabilities, which depend solely on ancestors and parents.
There is no unfairness or total randomness behind all this.
We do not see this as a frustrating mechanism, but as one of the pillars of the breeding system.
Removing this mechanism would greatly simplify breeding and increase the production of some specific sought after mounts.
This is not at all the goal of this update.

When faced with the difficulty of breeding Achievements, this is not a parameter that we take into account for this update. These are Achievements. They do not have to define how the breeding system works.


Inbreeding: I do not think I have seen a single person appreciate this system. It often asks for external tools, and is very, very frustrating. Since breeding will become more complex, it is necessary to suppress this concept.

 

I have not seen anyone around me love rain, taxes, or mosquitoes.
And yet we need them for the (eco) systems to work.

It is an effective system for regulating the production of mounts and preventing breeders from operating in a "closed cup".
We do not plan to remove that mechanic from the game.
Incidentally, breeding will not become more complex, it will have new restrictions to limit the massive production of mounts that pose a problem for the balance of functionality.


The feedback that comes to me the most, and that joins the two points of the paragraph above: it would be very nice to remove the level 5 restriction of the Dragoturkeys, which served to slow down the mass breeding and has no place to be if that will no longer exist (and if the Dragoturkeys will lose 3/4 of their reproductions).

We have studied this question, and we even considered to be able to circumvent the step of gaining experience of the mount by proposing a mechanism of feeding (with resources) which would have had an effect similar to gains of experience, but that would amount to imposing an additional cost for the breeding of each mount.
We are currently not convinced that this approach is relevant.

As for the total elimination of the need to earn experience points for mounts, we are not currently considering it, it is a safeguard that seems efficient and necessary. It is possible that we may reduce this step if we realise that it no longer plays any relevant role after 2.47.


Otherwise, for the Emerald Quest, it may be relevant that the wild mounts are fertile by default, so that the player does not have to invest in Breeding Items, this step is already complicated enough with the capturing of Dragoturkeys. Or that we really guide it in a simplified step (slide the tutorial here).

There are cheap and very accessible Breeding Items (but less efficient).
I do not think that the Quest for the Emerald Dofus really loses accessibility as a result of these modifications to breeding.

If the Quest for the Emerald Dofus really becomes too difficult as a result of breeding changes, we may be able to modify some of the objectives.


This is a good point, but will only remain so if it is done correctly (for example, redesigning low level items was a good point, but terribly, terribly incomplete, and therefore became
a bad point because it was disappointing. Round by the way, to reap the fresh notice of Temporis).

If you have constructive remarks about the latest recipe changes, you are free to create a dedicated topic and send me the link by Ankabox.


There is a big problem with boss resources. Certainly, we must destroy as much as possible, and it will become the limiting element. But we are still talking about using a Dungeon Keeper Essence (i.e. a boss Achievement, single and unique) for a consumable that will wear out very quickly. The resources of monsters are harvested at will, but not those of bosses: their destruction should be limited to Sets! Even if it is necessary to destroy as much as possible, it is really abnormal to find them in such a quantity (an essence, it is a minimum of 10 pieces of the boss) in consumable items.

 

Boss resources are harvested at will (just like any other resource in the game).
They are produced in large quantities and we wish to destroy much more to increase their value.
There is a very wide variety of Breeding Items and bosses, we think that there will always be inexpensive Dungeon Keeper Essences available for breeding purposes.
Breeders will of course have to make choices between favouring the characteristics of certain Breeding Items and the quality/price ratio of these items.

All players do not need to make every single piece of Equipment in the game, it seems appropriate to be able to destroy the boss resources with other game mechanics, especially the cheapest ones (that's exactly what Breeding Items allow).


Removing the Bobby NPC who recycled Breeding Items has also hurt enough on that side.

You can not have both very inexpensive Breeding Items, as well as mounts and resources that are very expensive.

 


It is also important to balance the Breeding Items, currently it is far from being the case.


Do not hesitate to describe to us the problems of balancing (apart from the recipes since they will be modified) that you experience with Breeding Items.


It would be great to find a way to destroy Seemyools, though. The Pearls of the Depths are really useless.

It is a rather complex problem, the same as that of all resources and alternative currencies (Kolossokens, etc.) that are not being sufficiently destroyed currently.
There is no miracle solution possible at this moment and it is also for this reason that it is important to regulate the generation of mounts significantly.

Edited by Gravestorm
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they will not be flying mounts that will fly over obstacles. Their movement animations will be different from those used for the current mounts, but it will only be a cosmetic specificity.

gLenPUf.gif

 

Also, pretty much any answer they gave was: "We don't agree with you and we'll do it anyway, because you're all wrong."

 

Great... :dry:

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You know your update is good when you have to justify changes by comparing them to mosquito's.

 

They can talk all they want about destroying boss mats (if they didn't want cheap boss mats, they shouldn't have made end game dungs easy), but at the end of the day they're making a boring system even more annoying, and that's just extremely dissapointing. 

 

It sounds like they want breeding to only be viable to a small group of dedicated breeders, but they fail to mention anything about breeding achievements, which are already harder to get than any dungeon achievement. At this point they should just remove them like they removed the agression system.

Edited by Fravanlan
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They need more resource destruction due to the failed implementation of achievement rewards and idols (extreme generations of both resources). Which they've been trying to solve in a lot of ways without changing the game dramatically. 

 

For me this update only makes breeding easier, because they want to improve passive breeding. Something many people seem to either not read or not value, even though if implemented correctly this is a huge win/improvement over the current system. 

Public paddocks were never there for full time breeders. This might seem weird but, if you want to make money or achieve something, you need to invest. 

 

Breeding achievements aren't hard to get, they just take time. If you don't want that, just buy a breeding pack and be done with it. You can leech breeding achievements just as easy as dungeon achievements as long as you pay for it. The fact that people want everything to be for everyone is kind of annoying, because it isn't. If breeding was supposed to be cheap and easy for everyone, the scroll market would collapse and 90% would quit after getting zero return of investment. 

 

Last but not least, I'd rather kms than spend 10 years trying to complete breeding achievements in public paddocks, for everyone who does: this is a welcome change because you can breed much faster now. 

If you're not willing to invest to get the breeding achievements, you don't deserve them anyway. 

Edited by bobeur
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bobe leech muldo achieves svp

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14 hours ago, bobeur said:

For me this update only makes breeding easier, because they want to improve passive breeding. Something many people seem to either not read or not value, even though if implemented correctly this is a huge win/improvement over the current system. 

Active breeding had its uses and its fans. It's no more "boring" of a system than harvesting professions, imo. The removal of active breeding is the removal of micromanaging serenity, which means that patters and slappers will run out of durability at a greater rate. This increases costs to the breeder.

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And if the pearls allowed to craft new Breeding Items?
And to not add additional cost, the breeder could feed his mounts with resources obtained from exchanging mount certificates. It would help the destruction of resources while making the activity less tedious.
We could have the same character who would exchange this resource for mount certificates, so you could in the process remove the Ambergris that is exchanged for the Pearls of the Depths and replace them in the recipes with Pebbles to destroy more Kolossokens, with one stone two blows!


I do not think that allowing breeding to provide breeding resources is very relevant, the functionality is not supposed to feed itself/maintain itself, it is supposed to depend and feed other activities of the game (the same reasoning is applied to all activities of the game).

We can possibly consider this from the point of view of recycling (massive destruction of surplus mounts in exchange for "bonuses" for breeding other mounts), but if there is an opportunity to have the same possibility of destroying resources as a priority from other activities than breeding, it seems more interesting to me.

 

 

Unless, in a more or less distant future, the accessibility of private paddocks becomes part of your projects, I find it justly unfair that the public is completely erased from the private sector.

We do not currently plan to change the accessibility of private paddocks (due to lack of time, we are aware that the system of access to private paddocks is not very satisfactory).


To the extent that the operation is the same, that the public paddocks consume resources like privatepaddocks , why is the public paddock so small? The industrial breeders of the public paddocks are already countered by a lot of measures (items, in particular), so any penalty seems really too much. And the same for the very small size of the paddocks.

We must not see the necessary use of Breeding Items in public paddocks as a "malus", it is balancing compared to private paddocks.
Industrial breeding and "hyper profitable" breeding in public padocks should never exist and develop.
Public paddocks are thought to give reasonable access to the breeding functionality, not to create disproportionate breeding.

For the size of the public paddocks we consider that the 25 places (10 + 10 + 5) are reasonable for free paddocks.
This size of public paddocks is not definitive, we will continue to think about it, but it seems important to me that private paddocks (expensive and difficult to access) have advantages over public paddocks.


In addition, private paddocks are not even instantiated, so as soon as there are several breeders in a guild the paddock is useless for some of them. Ironic, when the public paddock can not even serve to have a decent breeding.

What is "decent" breeding?
How are 25 places in public paddocks insufficient?


So, I think that the limitations should be accompanied with a redesign of real estate, it would be more fair (but less feasible? It runs after time!).

 

It is better to assume that there will not be a significant overhaul of access to private paddocks (this is not planned or planned at all).
 


I think we have to take generation Achievements into account. A player who wants to make his early-generation Achievements takes at least a good year for the Dragoturkeys, and another for the Seemyools.

Is it really a problem to have very long Achievements?
They are optional and we seek to have much more difficult Achievements that are longer to unlock than others.
In addition, obtaining breeding Achievements can be considerably accelerated through the purchase of certain mounts or by working with other breeders.
These are Achievements that benefit a lot from player interactions.


Certainly, the system of ancestral genealogy is interesting, but in having to produce, produce, produce Dragoturkeys/Seemyools again and again to achieve the Achievements, it always makes more generations of mounts. If the argument may seem a little diverted, I think from experience (personal or those I interviewed) that it is not negligible. Between producing specific Dragoturkeys easily or mass-producing while trying to produce the specific dragoturkey, I think the first has less disastrous consequences.

Facilitating the generation of specific mounts will also have potentially negative consequences:
1) Achieving breeding goals much faster (less life of the feature).
2) Faster and more important saturation of the desired mount market (since it will be easier to produce them in a targeted way).

Absolutely why not, but I do not currently see any argument that would justify following this direction.
Is the breeding "end game" (to reach the last generations, to obtain the Achievements, etc.) is considered too difficult at the moment?
Should end game breeding be democratized or can it remain a feature with a significant challenge (knowing that this is a totally optional feature)?


Admittedly, it is necessary to purge the classic servers of all the resources accumulated with the Achievement alts. But for new servers, like Temporis or single-account servers, I do not think it's very suitable. In any case, not in such quantity (one Dungeon Keeper Essence is enormous). And as you do not want/can not make distinctions... We should find a compromise for the balance of still healthy servers.

We are not going to balance the game by taking into account (in a significant and decisive way) the Temporis servers, they are not representative of the lifetime of an MMO (which spread over several years).
Our priority is to offer a game that works well on servers that may have several years of seniority and not to guarantee an experience built specifically for servers whose lifespan does not exceed a few months.
Temporis servers are very interesting to relive the launch of a new server and synchronize the progression of the players around a common departure, but they can not be used as a reference to balance the functioning of the classic game servers.

For the recipes of Breeding Items, I will repeat myself, there are almost a hundred or so Dungeon Keeper Essences, the players have a very big choice of Breeding Items that should allow them to "dodge" the Breeding Items comprising Dungeon Keeper Essences that are too expensive.

Breeding Items will not have the same price between old servers and single-account servers. Like many other items.
There will necessarily be a high ratio of breeding difficulty between old servers and new single-account servers.
As long as the breeding remains feasible on the classic servers, as long as the mounts can be produced, as long as there is a breeding market, then there is no problem for us.

I can not give you the recipes yet, they are still in the construction phase.
They will be more diversified than at present but will continue to rely on the Dungeon Keeper Essences (and a little less on conventional resources).

 

 

For the handyman in general, it would be necessary to smooth its progression so that it is viable to level it in a linear way (like Artificer). Moreover, a lot of keys are unused (low level for example), would it be possible to put them in the recipes of Breeding Items (even if it is very artificial)?

We do not plan to use dungeon keys anywhere other than to... enter the dungeons.
If they do not have sufficient utility as keys, we do not intend to add them as an artificial utility.


I ask the question because I am not very sure of the answer: the content of the paddocks are shared between 2 characters of the same account? If the answer is no, I find it abnormal given the objectives of the update.

Our goal is to have sheds and public paddocks shared between the characters of the same account.


For the omega levels: I do not understand the argument that you oppose. Do you not want to penalise alts on the same account for industrial breeding, it is contrary to the objectives of the update, no?

It's a matter of ergonomics/comfort.
If we take into account the Omega level of the current character (= currently connected) to determine the maximum size of the barn then it will become very difficult to use a secondary character to do breeding (even if it is pooled at the account level).
It may be a false problem, I do not know the habits of the breeders on this point.


Regarding the size of the sheds, I find the limit really artificial in reality since the limiting element is the size of the paddocks. Above all, for 3 species, it would be really nice to have 200 places for each species (industrial breeding rarely concerns 3 species at once, especially for useless Seemyools in terms of destruction).

I prefer an overall limit to species-specific limits, this pushes players to make choices and allows them to specialize on certain species.
We will re-examine the question of the size of the sheds but it seems to me that it is a guard necessary to limit massive breeding and also for technical constraints.

The maximum life of the certificates serves the same purpose, it pushes the players to make choices between the mounts and not to be able to keep everything, while technically limiting the storage size of the mounts.

Whether mounts are in the form of mounts or certificates, these are elements that include a lot of information (much more than just equipment for example) and we can not technically allow to store too many.
For information, the number of active certificates and mounts on a server has a significant impact on the duration of "fast" backups of game servers (those that take place outside of maintenance).
We have made many optimizations to reduce their impact on these backups, but they represent a volume of data that remains considerable and we must be firm and cautious about the multiplication of certificates (not expired) and mounts.

 

 

I really, really regret that nothing is done to counter the multi-accounting. Because for once, the measures made have the effect of reducing everything for single-accounters, but not for multi-accounters. It is therefore a nerve indirectly targeted on the single-accounters, when one hopes to rather have both sides equal.

I do not really understand what you explain and I have already given you explanations on this subject. If you do not agree, you need to explain more clearly why.

Nothing can be done to curb the raising of multi-accounts, because technically, the multi-account, it is a multiplication of the possibilities of several accounts.
If an account can raise 250 mounts, 2 accounts can raise 500 mounts.
That has always been the case, which is why some breeders are already using several accounts.
Currently an account can raise 250 * 5 mounts using 5 characters.
It will not be possible soon and it is "voluntary" (the mutualisation is wanted, the total number of places in a shed can be debated).
If you think that having a shed with 1250 places is necessary for breeding, that's what you have to talk about.


I may quibble, but it's not really specific to Seemyools if it's applied to Birdsies!

I just wanted to explain that we want to keep some kind of mounts (the Dragoturkeys) easier to breed.
The system of genetic collisions seems good to us right now so we intend to use it for the next kind of mounts.

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"What is "decent" breeding?
How are 25 places in public paddocks insufficient?"

 

I mean, if this is the kind of ignorance of their own game we're dealing with, it's hardly surprising that it's going down hill.

 

At my peak I was breeding with six 18 slots and two 17s to a total of 142 places. Even this wasn't to my capacity, but I didn't have access to a larger guild. 25 places for breeding even half a shed (124 mounts) is insufficient. Let alone multiple sheds. 

 

This is not 'decent' breeding. If you were breeding 124 mounts, it would take you 16 weeks to achieve the mating achievement with 10th gens. Lower gens have a lower pregnancy period, but with 25 places it's unlikely you could get your stock back to fertility in time anyway. 

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250 mount limitation :D

i am not even remotely a pro breeder nor do i use several characters on an account, just one.

honestly, this system needs a change. (yeah, i profit a lot from it but its going out of balance)

just for interest: can this go behind 999 ? 

 

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Edited by winged-one

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Once you remove them from the shed, you can't put them back in. So it's not a breedable setup. 

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13 minutes ago, Rob said:

Once you remove them from the shed, you can't put them back in. So it's not a breedable setup. 

I know. I just wanted to clarify for those who are not into breeding that it is possible to get more than 1000 mounts / mating period with just 4 accounts @ public paddock. That are 1000 Pscrolls @ AVG 30Mk (underpricing method all sold within 5 days) without any investment for breeding items but just 10 minutes of time / day. Thats > one year of sub !

Now imagine beeing a pro breeder. Its out of balance, they're right and need to change it.

 

come on breeders, flame me :D

Edited by winged-one

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Currently, the barriers to entry are very low, as you've very helpfully illustrated. How is raising these barriers while simultaneously harming efficiency (lowering number of matings) going to improve breeding for anyone? People who couldn't be bothered to breed their own mounts to start with certainly won't be bothered to also craft all their breeding items. It hurts existing breeders (inflated breeding item prices, reduced efficiency, more time leveling mounts (this sucks!)) but doesn't encourage new breeders to enter the market. It's also worth noting that 99% of large-scale breeding is for scrolls, the concern over the decreased value of DTs is totally irrelevant. As stated before, this is largely due to Seemyools and not the oversupply of higher gen mounts.

 

The obvious fix is to make DTs themselves more attractive, not harm one of the few remaining reliable income streams. 

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I think it helps at the bigger picture. Not everyone is a breeder, and breeders wouldn't be happy if it were so, because then there would be little demand of their products. Some of the changes will increase cost and decrease efficiency for breeders, but they will increase profits for some other people like handymen. So more people, including breeders, will level up the handyman profession, and maybe then we won't have to pay 300kk for keys, and maybe more people will do dungeons and have the need for better mounts and the kamas to afford them. I might be overly optimistic on this, or I might be missing different benefits of the change, but basically, I don't think it's helpful to focus too much on one single aspect of these changes.

Edited by Happida
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I think this way of "income" is to far out of balance and i want this game to stay alive, i like this game.

Sure, i currently profit from it, like i used to profit from bots (filling percs) or various other loopholes within all the years...

Things needed to be balanced. When everybody stops playing this game because its balance is sucky, its not going to be fun for the remaining playerbase...

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If the income is far out of balance, why isn't everyone breeding? There's an abundance of mid-slot paddocks on the market. The truth is it takes a substantial amount of time to manage a large breeding operation and once you factor in the initial cost of paddocks and breeding items the profits are only slightly above average.

 

Balance does not mean that lazy individuals should have equal wealth. It means everyone has equal opportunity. Breeders have not exploited anything to allow them to make kamas, it's just a matter of perseverance. It's certainly no more, if not less lucrative than people providing XP or achievement services with their teams; something that historically Ankama has frowned upon. These days you can easily pick up pure tree 10th gen mounts for a few hundred kk, a 10 slot paddock for 10mk and your breeding empire has just begun. 

 

Sure, I'm certainly not unbiased, but all I've seen over the last few years is every sustainable income source cut away in the name of balance. What's left now is a booming cash for Kamas market, a lot of 'middle class' players struggling to break the 100mk mark and the same old rich players who exploited international server transfers for years.

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Winged: Breeding is a way of playing. Not a profession. You have one shed like that. How long did it take you? What were you doing in game while raising the last 150? Image those who did this, let's say for 1-10 years? These are the people with the influence on the scroll market. People who are playing to regulate at least one semi-ok market. Hard work - hard kamas. More breeders has ALWAYS been welcomed by other breeders too for that matter. We compete with each other and we know each other. I don't think I've ever discussed prices with anyone. All of us profit anyway. I write as I'm a part of it - but I picked it up on 1.29 again and it's the same thing there. It always worked and was never broken :-). 

 

Edit: It will continue but the outcome will mean many dissatisfied customers. More accounts to abo for those who continue and lower profit for everyone. Many will stop playing as a result of it and knowledge will be gone. The market will become unstable for a very long time. People will benefit, people will lose. We've had this in other updates over the years. Bigger public paddocks - higher competition. Many quit. New paddock items - higher competition. Many quit. Echo server - higher competition. Many quit.

 

The result: Current market. This update? Why now? The timing couldn't be worse. Maybe I misunderstand this whole thing and not seeing a bigger picture (I get you Happida). It just seem... I don't know, not-well-planned?

Edited by Youbutsu
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I agree with youbutsu.  i haven't played in a while but saw this and was like wtf.  I'm hoping the French breeders are losing their shit over these proposed changes. 

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On 11.5.2018 at 3:48 PM, Youbutsu said:

Winged: Breeding is a way of playing. Not a profession. You have one shed like that. How long did it take you? What were you doing in game while raising the last 150? Image those who did this, let's say for 1-10 years? These are the people with the influence on the scroll market. People who are playing to regulate at least one semi-ok market. Hard work - hard kamas. More breeders has ALWAYS been welcomed by other breeders too for that matter. We compete with each other and we know each other. I don't think I've ever discussed prices with anyone. All of us profit anyway. I write as I'm a part of it - but I picked it up on 1.29 again and it's the same thing there. It always worked and was never broken :-). 

 

Edit: It will continue but the outcome will mean many dissatisfied customers. More accounts to abo for those who continue and lower profit for everyone. Many will stop playing as a result of it and knowledge will be gone. The market will become unstable for a very long time. People will benefit, people will lose. We've had this in other updates over the years. Bigger public paddocks - higher competition. Many quit. New paddock items - higher competition. Many quit. Echo server - higher competition. Many quit.

 

The result: Current market. This update? Why now? The timing couldn't be worse. Maybe I misunderstand this whole thing and not seeing a bigger picture (I get you Happida). It just seem... I don't know, not-well-planned?

Sry for getting back to this that late...

 

You both are right, it didnt took me lot efford nor i am playing much these days. I can imagine that breeding was very hard for the beginning. For me it was just buying a matching couple of "pure repro" mounts (different mixes) and after some cycles (without exchanging into scrolls) it kind of exploded.

 

Now its just one day for 40 mounts energy, stamina, love @ public without further invest. (max ~25 days to get them all ready + gestigation time (+ very annoying mating time ^^)

 

I leveled all mounts from archievements, for that reason my chars are all only Omega ~60. I would be by far to lazy to level them the proper way, so my income is limited to mount cycles and remaining achievement XP to contribute...

 

I think i can understad that it must have been pain in the a** to breed until a matching pair of pure 10th gen mounts.

So, with this very limited point of my view i can say MY EFFORDS compared to MY GAINS were unbalanced, so they are for others stepping into this from my staircase. I just wanted to show that seriously i didn't want to make you pro breeders upset.

 

(you may flame other pro breeders selling breedable 10th gen pure repro couples, but thats a different story)

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I can't speak for Dan, but this was my take. I completely agree with you about ease of access, in fact, that's my key point. There are currently very low barriers to entry for people who want to breed in their spare time using public paddocks. This is a good thing because it makes the entry-level breeding accessible for all. With your figures, you're probably looking at 15-20m a month absolute maximum in revenue (25 days to gain fertility, 7 days pregnancy). Compared to other kama methods such as achievement leeching, idol drop farming or exo-maging this is relatively low and certainly not unbalanced. Introducing the need to craft personal items and reducing the total paddock size to 25 will dramatically reduce the already low efficiency levels. This discourages people from even taking the first steps into breeding and is nerfing something that financially was already average by today's standards. 

 

The next step is 'pro' breeding. This is a totally different ballpark. When I was farming I was running two sheds of pure repros and statting these in four-five days maximum. I'd then mate them and immediately
re-stat while pregnant, this means every single week I am birthing on average 700-750 mounts with no gaps. With today's prices that's 30m, previously this was potentially double, netting 200m+ monthly. This is not easy, but at the same time, I still regarded it as relatively passive. Once you've developed a routine it's a matter of logging for maybe 15 minutes to rotate mounts and an hour or two of active breeding to swap around the serenity levels. Even now the kama gains are not excessive in comparison to other end-game options of players with the same dedication; in fact, following the server merges, scroll prices have almost halved from an existing low.

 

The only real disruption these proposed changes will have on large-scale breeding is the need to replace the mounts every 10 weeks. This could take a couple of days tops to level out serenity, mature and level, but is also completely contradictory to the alleged intention of reducing monotony within breeding with these changes. I think anyone will tell you levelling mounts to 5 is the absolute worst part of the process; so much so that I pay people 50kk / mount to do it for me. 

 

In the current form, these changes have a largely negative impact on first time and casual breeders who are predominantly using this as a second income. Yet, the devs are somehow under the belief these changes are beneficial to them. They also make completing the current breeding achievements significantly harder for non-breeders, which are already one of the most hated achievement categories. Pro breeders will certainly see a mild dip in productivity and thus profitability but certainly nothing drastic. So whether in favour of nerfing breeding or not, these changes are the wrong way to achieve this.

 

The below proposals show a clear disconnect between development staff and their own game. Of the five outlined goals, the first misidentifies the cause, two of them are completely obsolete, one contradicts another major proposed change and one contradicts the entire proposal itself.

 

  • Limit the excessive generation of Mounts (mainly Dragoturkeys) to guarantee them a higher value

The vast majority of mount generation is by scroll breeders, both pro and small time such as Winged-One outlined. This does not result in an increased supply of mounts as they are traded 1-1 for scrolls. The greatest cause of mount devaluation is a reduction in demand. New equipment such as petsmounts, PvP focused pets and predominantly Seemyools vastly outpower traditional DTs. They are no longer a staple piece of equipment.

 

  • Increase the global destruction of resources and boost the economy of Breeding Items.

The proposed changes to public paddocks and the nature of casual breeders mean the increased demand for breeding items is likely to be negligible. Pro breeders do not buy breeding items from the market, simple as. We make them ourselves and thus there will not be an 'economy' of breeding items. The proposed increase in effectiveness will also reduce aggregate demand for these items, contradictory to the proposal. 

 

  • Strengthen the mechanics of decreasing profitability: the more players (at the scale of a server) raise Mounts, the higher the consumption of Breeding Items must increase and therefore limit the profitability of raising additional Mounts (setting up a natural and dynamic balance).

These changes inherently discourage people from picking up breeding, so decreasing profitability is unlikely to occur as a result of the update. This system is already how the resource market for breeding items works in their current state. 

 

  • Allow players to be able to do Breeding without needing active breeding (use of Emotes), to get rid of this too repetitive and too poor mechanic.

Sure, but let’s double the frequency that you have to swap your mount at a paddock 250 times and complete a single fight to reach level 5. Would you rather wave your arms 25 times or swap a mount 250? Priorities

 

  •  Limit the almost exponential proliferation of Dragoturkey abilities and allow the natural introduction of the Chameleon trait for Dragoturkeys.

Refer to my response to goal 1. Who gives a shit about DT traits if no one uses them? This goal is obsolete. 

 

 

 

 

tl;dr

the devs of Wakfu were probably given a word target and 30 minutes to compile these proposals.

 

 

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They did say they were going to buff DTs in this update though, so let's give them that. Though I can't imagine they'll do anything good with it. xD

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They should totally remove the 1000 mates achievement. It forces completionist people to generate thousands of mounts that they wouldn't otherwise.

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idk I finished 1k mates achievement WAY before generations.

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18 hours ago, Rob said:

The proposed changes to public paddocks and the nature of casual breeders mean the increased demand for breeding items is likely to be negligible. Pro breeders do not buy breeding items from the market, simple as. We make them ourselves and thus there will not be an 'economy' of breeding items. The proposed increase in effectiveness will also reduce aggregate demand for these items, contradictory to the proposal. 

One of the main complaints about the proposed changes is that public paddocks will no longer have free breeding items, so evidently people do currently use them, and that means demand for breeding items will increase after the free ones are removed. Even if you make your own breeding items, you could still be contributing to economic activity by buying wood or other ingredients. If you really make and farm everything on your own, you end up with less time to breed which means your competitors who buy those items will have an edge.

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Very true. The question is what proportion of people currently using public paddocks would continue to do so if they had to buy and manage their own breeding items. The very casual nature of public paddocks attracts such players, they may simply ditch breeding altogether for another activity. Especially once you combine this with the 25 total slots. This low slot count also heavily restricts how many new breeding items would be required for public paddock users; relatively it would still have a low impact on the economy. 

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