• Sky
  • Blueberry
  • Slate
  • Blackcurrant
  • Watermelon
  • Strawberry
  • Orange
  • Banana
  • Apple
  • Emerald
  • Chocolate
  • Charcoal
42 posts in this topic

 585022.jpg

 

As announced in Gamakna #0, a simplification of high-level content is scheduled for the next update (2.42). The goal is to get this content back in sync with how the game has evolved over the years, and to establish just the right balance of difficulty and accessibility.


Before we go any further, let me briefly explain what we're talking about here: 
 

  • "High-level" content refers to content at difficulty levels higher than Frigost II: Frigost III, obviously, but also the Divine Dimensions, the Underwater Extension and a few individual dungeons (Tal Kasha and Shadow, for example).
  • It's probably pretty clear what we mean by "simplification": we'll be making this content less difficult. See below for details.


Let's go back to the days before these dungeons were introduced, when the most difficult content in the game was in Frigost II. This content has itself been simplified in the past; we increased accessibility and reduced the difficulty so that more players could meet the prerequisites to reach Frigost III, which then allowed a larger slice of the population to have access to this content.

However, for players who had reached level 200 and completed the dungeons that were available at the time, there wasn't really any more room to progress – and that was the biggest complaint we heard from the community: With all of the improvements we made to the dungeons after Frigost II (simplification, the addition of modular dungeons, achievements, etc.), none of them provided any new challenges to players who had already completed that content, and those players hadn't had anything new to sink their teeth into for several years.

It was at that point that we integrated Frigost III. But we wanted to avoid a situation where, the day after Frigost III came out, most of those same players would have already finished it and gone back to asking us to add new content for them. So it was important to us to provide content that would have a slightly longer lifespan (i.e. that would take a certain amount of time for players to get through).

There are only so many ways to make sure that players don't play through new content "too quickly":

  • Impose time limits: X dungeons (or X attempts) per day. This solution is totally artificial, and although we have tried to limit the addition of daily content over the years, we don't want to do it in this particular form.
  • Impose limits on exchanges: prevent players from exchanging items acquired in the dungeons, so that they have to make their way through every last bit of the content (often several times) if they want all the rewards. Needless to say, we don't much like this solution either: DOFUS relies in large part on its exchange system, and limiting that would do much more harm than good.
  • Produce a lot of content: 20 dungeons will probably give players a longer in-game experience than 5 dungeons. But that would also mean investing more resources – and besides, quantity is not the same thing as quality.
  • Produce replayable content. This was the preferred solution before Achievements were introduced: adding content with very rare, highly randomized loot, thus ensuring a very long lifespan. We have turned away from this approach (to some players' great disappointment, we know) for two main reasons: 
    1. DOFUS is a tactical game, so it's inherently less interesting when played repeatedly: once you've won a battle, doing it again is much easier. The whole challenge is coming up with a winning strategy. The battle doesn't change from one iteration to the next (or not much, mainly to limit the impact of random factors on the outcome of battles), so it often unfolds in an (almost) identical way every time.
    2. Having to go through the same dungeons again and again heavily penalized single-account players and less frequent players, who didn't necessary have the time to go through these dungeons regularly. On average, players had to complete 15 to 20 dungeons per character in order to build even a single item. Furthermore, at the time, it could sometimes take dozens of hours to finally complete a dungeon (what with having to go through every room again on each attempt, and 8-character battles that took a long time), and certain players didn't get any reward at all if they were unlucky.
  • Produce more challenging content: offer relatively difficult dungeons that require a major investment of time and effort to achieve victory, but with a big reward for the first victory.


Obviously, this last solution is the one we've decided to go with, in part because some of the player feedback we received in the past was fairly critical of the difficulty level of the content we were producing (which was seen as being too easy).

Today, the situation seems to be reversed: criticism of the lack of high-level content, which was a recurring theme just 4 years ago, has now given way to concerns about an overemphasis on this type of content.

We think this is because, back then, the proportion of characters who had hit the highest possible level was much lower, and the players in question were eager for more challenging content (since reaching level 200 required a lot of investment at the time). Since then, we've made character progression easier, with the goal of giving more players access to high-level content. There are a lot more level 200 characters now, with the side effect that many of them don't really have the time or interest to invest in finishing the challenging content we provide for them, even though it's labeled “level 200". Simply put, the fact of having reached the highest possible level doesn't mean what it did a few years ago.

In response to extensive feedback along these lines, we've decided that it's time to simplify our high-level content for a number of reasons:
 

  • We don't want to ignore the increasing number of players who have reached level 200 but find that the content at that level requires far too much time and effort to complete.
  • We want to make this content more accessible to a wider variety of class compositions.
  • Given that we now have a lot of high-level content, we can more easily reduce the "lifespan" of each dungeon without giving the impression that our "end game" content is over too quickly.


Overall, we've worked on a number of different points:
 

  • Removing or replacing certain mechanics: We want to make certain battles more accessible by limiting the number of things players have to keep track of. For example, in the Catseye battle, the system of black glyphs has been replaced by damage if a monster starts its turn in the same cell as a character, while splash damage and healing have been removed (when attacking a monster or character who was on the same tile number as another).
  • Reducing certain effects: Similarly, by reducing the strength of certain effects, we ensure that they do not require as much attention, because mistakes are not punished so severely. Against Vortex, for example, resuscitated monsters now have less health and less MP.
  • Making monsters easier to understand and predict: We have modified most of the monsters in the affected zones (except for Tal Kasha, Merkator,and Shadow, for which only the bosses have been changed). 
    • Removing certain unnecessary or redundant spells: for example, Skt-Zo can no longer give shield points, and Spookkoth's place-swapping spell no longer exists.
    • Reducing certain monsters' mobility: reduced MP and added recast intervals on certain teleportation spells.
    • More constraints on casting spells that were previously too easy to cast: addition of straight-line casting for certain long-range spells, reduction in certain monsters' range, longer cooldown periods.
  • Improved visibility for certain effects: We have recently developed new tools to make combat easier to understand, and we're taking advantage of changes to the dungeons to use those tools retroactively whenever possible on the dungeons that came out before the tools were available. For instance, when battling the Queen of Thieves, the bomb that is going to explode at the end of the current character's turn will now be indicated by an icon.


The details of these changes will be provided in the changelog; for now, here's the list of the dungeons that will be affected:
 

  • Catseye
  • Vortex
  • Queen of Thieves
  • King Nidas
  • Koutoulou
  • Meno
  • Dantinea
  • Tal Kasha
  • Merkator
  • Shadow
  • Missiz Freezz
  • Klime
  • Nileza
  • Count Harebourg
  • Sylargh


This doesn't mean that no other dungeons will be reviewed, but we chose to concentrate on the dungeons with the most issues, given the time that was available to us.

We will continue to keep an eye on the results of our changes, both in beta and beyond, and make any necessary adjustments. We expect these dungeons to work better now, but above all, we hope that more players will have an opportunity to explore them, and therefore take full advantage of all the content we have to offer.

By the way: this doesn't mean that we're completely abandoning the possibility of producing more "demanding" content in the future. We'll keep thinking about the best ways to provide this type of content to the players who ask for it, while still making sure that it's accessible and interesting to as many players as possible. Idols and Achievements are already useful tools to provide a significant difficulty boost for content that is still generally accessible, but we hope to iterate on these mechanics in order to feed the insatiable appetites of our most demanding players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A much needed update imo. When you want to play the game to relax a bit but instead you spend 3 hours on a evening to take a few tries on an endgame dungeon, while progressing nothing, thats not the point of the game for me.

9 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm ok with this. Maybe they could still work on having dungeons with the choice between original and nerfed mechanics for the more demanding people.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Umm... Imao it's lame idea. It is know that every game has it's end-game content that can't be defeated by every player... It's obvious that it should take you hours of trying before you manage to understand certain dungeon's mechanics (the hardest one atleast). By removing the difficulty Ankama is basically spits at current top pvm players faces (they won't be top after update cuz everbody can do what they have done hhhh)...

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Topmaster said:

A much needed update imo. When you want to play the game to relax a bit but instead you spend 3 hours on a evening to take a few tries on an endgame dungeon, while progressing nothing, thats not the point of the game for me.

This is because you are topnoobmaster

7 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a difference between challenging and frustrating. It looks like Ankama is trying to keep the difficulty while making it less frustrating to learn by giving some level of warning (see the queen bomb example in OP), or by making certain effects less punishing, but still very bad for the players (see catseye example in OP)

 

I hope they've hit the right mark with this, I agree the endgame shouldn't be a breeze, but it also shouldn't take weeks to do your first successful run if you aren't Multi accounting in an optimized team.

5 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

17 minutes ago, Shuko said:

Umm... Imao it's lame idea. It is know that every game has it's end-game content that can't be defeated by every player... It's obvious that it should take you hours of trying before you manage to understand certain dungeon's mechanics (the hardest one atleast). By removing the difficulty Ankama is basically spits at current top pvm players faces (they won't be top after update cuz everbody can do what they have done hhhh)...

I could be wrong but i think 90% of the "top pvm" players completed those dungeons by studying youtube videos of players finding a way to abuse the fight. Ever heard of the Autowin videos? That isnt really an accomplishment in my eyes .. 

Edited by Topmaster
9 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

"Autowin" doesn't have any particular meaning but is just randomly thrown in for more clickbaity titles. If a fight is done in any too abusive way, it's normally nerfed by Ankama. 

 

You should at least have a small idea.

Edited by masik233
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, masik233 said:

"Autowin" doesn't have any particular meaning but is just randomly thrown in for more clickbaity titles. If a fight is done in any too abusive way, it's normally nerfed by Ankama. 

 

You should at least have a small idea.

 

I'm aware of that .. the problem is that as soon as they announce that abusive way nerf, those players use 2-3 weeks (while beta is in testing period) to leech their alts through. So that doesn't really solve the problem 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a definitely much needed update. I know of people who have been lvl 200 for many years yet still haven't completed many lvl 200 dungeons. It shouldn't be this way that you have to have a special combination of characters to accomplish dungeons. Everyone should have the option. What about making all the challenges (achievements) on these dungeons? What about 300 score? For most people it's crazy difficult or simply impossible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You don't need a specific team, it's just the easy way most of the time. And since gamers tend to be lazy or tired after a days work, they just take the easy team over the one that requires more effort and thinking.

Everyone does have the option, some people just don't have the gear or the patience for it, some just don't want to to invest enough time to understand the mechanics. And some people simply don't care.

The idea that everyone should be able to do all achievements is retarded, they're called achievements for a reason and making them easily obtainable for everyone defeats the purpose. Besides, with the right team/set of friends you can do all achievements if you try hard enough. (I'm pretty sure after the duo nerf for dimensions, they became available to any possible class).

 

There are currently 18 (?) classes in the game, with all entirely different mechanics. It's simply impossible to design a dungeon that has the same difficulty for every class.

 

Besides, if people can solo some of these dungeons (F3, whale, merkator, shadow, meno, dantinea, tal kasha) with some classes you can't be serious that they need a nerf..

9 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

28 minutes ago, bobeur said:

Besides, if people can solo some of these dungeons (F3, whale, merkator, shadow, meno, dantinea, tal kasha) with some classes you can't be serious that they need a nerf..

 

yes, those classes need a nerf (as well) :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Topmaster said:

I could be wrong but i think 90% of the "top pvm" players completed those dungeons by studying youtube videos of players finding a way to abuse the fight. Ever heard of the Autowin videos? That isnt really an accomplishment in my eyes .. 

K den, go try urself  ur autowin mechanics provided by youtube.  

Whats achievement in ur eyes then? being able to do certain dungeon because it got nerfed????

 

Edited by Shuko

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Shuko said:

K den, go try urself  ur autowin mechanics provided by youtube.  

Whats achievement in ur eyes then? being able to do certain dungeon because it got nerfed????

 

 

I am not using those autowin mechanics because i think they are stupid. Back in the day I fought vortex with a legit strategy but i gave up after a few weeks because the reward wasnt worth the time and effort i put in it. As bob said, people use those autowin mechanics because they are mostly lazy and want to get through content in the easiest way possible.

 

In my eyes, achievements are little projects you put time in only knowing you are making progress. And that is not the case when you're trying to get past bosses like Vortex and Catseye

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Well all the boss drop prices will deteriorate into nothingness after this patch. Getting gear will be based on farming normal monster drops now because any boss loot will be worth as much as kolosso claws/cb tails are worth now.

The entire economy will just collapse due to boss drop influx generated through achievements. Bad idea Amakna.

If they were to make things slightly above current F3, it'd probably be OK. But since they're even nerfing F3, I have a feeling we will end up with a Wakfu difficulty kind of a game. Not the best idea.

Edited by Mikefield
new ideas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this is fine and good, but they shouldn't abandon challenging content entirely. I think they should, after this, as well as adding more "easier" dungs like these, also add more challenging dungeons like we have in 2.41. However, the gear obtained through these more challenging areas should not obsolete the rest of the gear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For and against this update the mentioned dungeons can be frustrating at times but as much as it pisses me off the satisfaction from actually beating one with achievements actually makes it an achievement in my eyes, making it easier is to beat I wouldn't really call it an achievement.

 

I am happy being really far behind in content as it actually gives me something to do because of the difficulty im here for personal satisfaction not so much beating x dungeon next day because everyone else did it the only thing really keeping me in this game is achievements sitting at 10k looking towards 16k will keep me going for sometime hopefully these changes make it a little bit easier not super easy like they did to f2. F3 imo is already easy enough. Dimension 200's and underwater etc etc yet to have a go at since I don't see anything I really want from those areas right now might get to them in a few years.

 

They should just make it optional easy mode get less loot/xp perhaps only having the easier of the two boss mats drop in easy then hard drop the better of the two boss drop ofc higher prices on the harder to get mat perhaps only the "beat x boss achieve unlocks on easy mode then any other achieves  can only be obtained via normal/hard I think there should be something beneficial if you beat a dungeon on a harder setting

 

Easier for the casuals and still that skill gap for those who do learn the dungeon inside out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I have mixed feeling about this

lets be honest the people who struggle to do FF3 will still struggle after update with vortex and stuff

I have done most dung apart from Vortex +Qot and cats eye

I think the mat price for these will drop by half 

I am ok with that, I will be able to beat these dungs now and this will also increase the value of my kamas by giving them more purchase power.

The main problem is they will neft mobs mp and a mp red enu is already OP to make all mobs 1mp after enus turn will turn game into a joke.

In Beta they will adjust the dungs somewhat anyway.

Edited by Xelorsrule
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Imma just take a guess that Ankama is making current endgame dungeons simpliler so your average solo account has something to work towards while Ankama introduce even harder dungeons.

 

Let's see what these new sidimote dungeons bring to the table.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still find Kimbo hard O.o

9 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yea they made all the new dungs cause teams of 8 were farming CB

and they wanted to stop the mass Kamas creation for a small group of players ,Now I am afraid they will nerf all to CB levels

we shall have to see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not lazy, I'm just stupid! Me dying infinite times to an end game dimension/sufokia dungeon doesn't make me lazy. Honesty I would not care if the dungeons were easier, and I didn't receive any achievements or mats from them. I just want to DO them. Now, there are a handful of dungeons that I have labeled off as 'untouchable'. It's not that us ungodlike players want all the points and mats, I think we just want to see the new content (new bosses) that is released.

 

Like mentioned before, I do think they will release a whole new level of end game bosses. Like what happened to F2 and F3. Suddenly everyone could do F2 bosses, but still only some people could do F3. I hope it can work out for everyone then that way. I hope that more of us can do these dimension and sufokia dungeons, because they have been around for a long time now. In the meantime, they can keep working on releasing more challenging things. Like Auron said, some of us still have a long ways to catch up.

 

5 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I rather liked the "luck part" like it was mit Pandora Master Fabric (for example, but i guess many of you doen't know^^)

 

they should keep the rewards from hardcore achievements but lower boss drops in general in combination with less difficulty. I would rather like to run a dungeon 10 times to get one item crafted than 20 times to succeed once und get drops by achievemens for 10 items :D 

Edited by winged-one
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Xelorsrule said:

Yea they made all the new dungs cause teams of 8 were farming CB

and they wanted to stop the mass Kamas creation for a small group of players ,Now I am afraid they will nerf all to CB levels

we shall have to see.

 

If they want to stop farming teams, the last thing they'd do is make the farmed content easier.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, winged-one said:

I rather liked the "luck part" like it was mit Pandora Master Fabric (for example, but i guess many of you doen't know^^)

 

they should keep the rewards from hardcore achievements but lower boss drops in general in combination with less difficulty. I would rather like to run a dungeon 10 times to get one item crafted than 20 times to succeed once und get drops by achievemens for 10 items :D 

 

Welcum 2 Henual m8. 

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.