[Mikemeplease]

So, to summarise, for those of us who have cruised through frig2 and have spent the last 3-4 months farming CB endlessly we now get to do the exact same thing for another fucking year because some 18x players in moowolf set complaining about how hard tengu is can't beg someone enough to get through the dungeons?

Top-end content isn't supposed to be for everyone, that's why it's top-end. That doesn't mean you need to stop developing it, nor does it mean you need to dumb it down to give active goal-oriented players even less reason to play. Truth is with a half-decent team/group all of the existing frigost dungs are easy anyway. None of them are near the difficulty of Ougaa or N, for instance. The only thing you'll be doing by dumbing them down is giving active, experienced players even less reason to log on.

This post has been edited by Mikemeplease: 07 February 2012 - 03:07 PM

[tar]

It boils down to that iop that wants to Peccary twice instead of intimidating and moving away .. or the cra that wants to puni and destructive and not lash. Basic things like that. So many people go "rambo" and expect the rest of the team to cover for them.

[-Nichon-]

Mikemeplease, on 07 February 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

So, to summarise, for those of us who have cruised through frig2 and have spent the last 3-4 months farming CB endlessly we now get to do the exact same thing for another fucking year because some 18x players in moowolf set complaining about how hard tengu is can't beg someone enough to get through the dungeons?

Top-end content isn't supposed to be for everyone, that's why it's top-end. That doesn't mean you need to stop developing it, nor does it mean you need to dumb it down to give active goal-oriented players even less reason to play. Truth is with a half-decent team/group all of the existing frigost dungs are easy anyway. None of them are near the difficulty of Ougaa or N, for instance. The only thing you'll be doing by dumbing them down is giving active, experienced players even less reason to log on.

It's just an excuse they're making for not delivering you know...

[Lotuz]

Sorry for wasting your time, you all should keep illuminating our lives with the brilliancy that all of that brain power produces, your amazing and productive posts have show that only 3% of the characters that can access frigost have finished all dungeons because, obviously, everyone else is nothing but a complete bunch of retards

[Elmandia]

Along the lines of what Nichon was saying earlier, one of the big issues in my mind is this: If you are a genuine single accounter, even if you have a great group of friends, or a multiclienting friend that you can do the dungeons with, unless they give you their drops too it's simply far too inefficient to make your own gear. Using CB as an example, although any frigost dungeon would apply, you do one run and then the soul, and you may get 2 tails, and maybe a hamate if you are lucky. So going off this rule, you'd need to do at least 5 runs and 5 souls to make one item, not to mention all the torpid hairs and other difficult items that you will have no where near enough of, and have a hard time farming. Plus, unless they want to do it over 5 weeks, they'd also have to farm/make their own keys or buy them, and they are kind of expensive. So naturally these players find another source of kamas, be it ogrines, kolossium and selling trophies or something (i dunno, i never have many kamas), and then buy their gear, without having to step foot on frigost.

So, what might work is finding a way to give you more drops the fewer accounts you are using at the time. But that would also need them to figure out a way to stop virtual machines and stuff.

[-Nichon-]

Lotuz, on 07 February 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

Sorry for wasting your time, you all should keep illuminating our lives with the brilliancy that all of that brain power produces, your amazing and productive posts have show that only 3% of the characters that can access frigost have finished all dungeons because, obviously, everyone else is nothing but a complete bunch of retards

Some are, yes. But you're missing all the points about how hard it is to find people who are correctly geared to run a dungeon with you; Or how Ankama doesn't encourage people to update their set more often than every 60 levels. Which is fine really, when you do kolossium fights which is rate based or if you're happy to do blop dungeon again and again but don't go crying you can't get past obsidemon.

Your 3% are people level 50+; what an useful metric. Of the 84% who didn't do all frig II dungeons, some just never tried or don't give a shit (i.e farming DP or kimbo only), some did quit before doing it, etc. Some are just terrible at it, I don't see the problem if they fail. At the end of the day, they can still equip that CB or fuji set and enjoy other aspects of the game.

An interesting metric is how 18% of the 160-180 never succeeded royal mastogob. That should put the other metrics in perspective: They don't prove anything. Ankama just took 10mins to write them down and cover up the upcoming... Lack of new content.

This post has been edited by -Nichon-: 07 February 2012 - 03:29 PM

[-BetaBanane-]

Elmandia, on 07 February 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

Along the lines of what Nichon was saying earlier, one of the big issues in my mind is this: If you are a genuine single accounter, even if you have a great group of friends, or a multiclienting friend that you can do the dungeons with, unless they give you their drops too it's simply far too inefficient to make your own gear. Using CB as an example, although any frigost dungeon would apply, you do one run and then the soul, and you may get 2 tails, and maybe a hamate if you are lucky. So going off this rule, you'd need to do at least 5 runs and 5 souls to make one item, not to mention all the torpid hairs and other difficult items that you will have no where near enough of, and have a hard time farming. Plus, unless they want to do it over 5 weeks, they'd also have to farm/make their own keys or buy them, and they are kind of expensive. So naturally these players find another source of kamas, be it ogrines, kolossium and selling trophies or something (i dunno, i never have many kamas), and then buy their gear, without having to step foot on frigost.

So, what might work is finding a way to give you more drops the fewer accounts you are using at the time. But that would also need them to figure out a way to stop virtual machines and stuff.

DUDE! have you ever farmed nose ring?? peki peki drops like shit! I NEVER COMPLAINED ABOUT THAT! When i was a Feca lvl 160, i started farming this ring 2 years ago. it took me about 2 or 3 months back then. its just the way it is! its no fuckin problem!

[kalimutio]

If they want more people to go to bearb dung they only need to make it a requirement to wear bearb set. Or something like those potsan pants with a quest completed requirement. And more content for every levels means some new scara dungs or amakna castle quests... if anyone is not going to resub im sure that will make him change his mind.

[-BetaBanane-]

kalimutio, on 07 February 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

If they want more people to go to bearb dung they only need to make it a requirement to wear bearb set. Or something like those potsan pants with a quest completed requirement. And more content for every levels means some new scara dungs or amakna castle quests... if anyone is not going to resub im sure that will make him change his mind.

For the record, they just want to IMPROVE EXISTING dungeons, to make them more fun.
And secondly, they want to MIX frigost with old dungeons, so for some new sets, you will need frigost mat and i.e. kimbo socks or whatever.
i think its really nice, and im looking forward to see this

This post has been edited by -BetaBanane-: 07 February 2012 - 03:32 PM

[Du-Som]

- Dungeons take too long. ( Too much useless rooms )
- Some gear is hard to make. ( Glad / Berserker Bworker )

And what Tar said, a huge part do not know how to play correctly, since they either leech or waste time fighting wrong mobs.
8 Mono players have 8 different brains and thus 8 different ways to approach a Boss.

Unlike Pro teams who know their tactic those mono players are lost sheeps.

Also, they want to revive the old dungeons because they are deserted?
Are you effin kidding me? After all those years they want us to go back and do those lame ass dungeons again?

I am done with old dungeons, I want new things to fight.
I could care less about peki anymore after all those fabric.
They should burn Moon because it's damn annoying to fight him since shells do not stack.

[-BetaBanane-]

Du-Som, on 07 February 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

- Dungeons take too long. ( Too much useless rooms )
- Some gear is hard to make. ( Glad / Berserker Bworker )

And what Tar said, a huge part do not know how to play correctly, since they either leech or waste time fighting wrong mobs.
8 Mono players have 8 different brains and thus 8 different ways to approach a Boss.

Unlike Pro teams who know their tactic those mono players are lost sheeps.

Also, they want to revive the old dungeons because they are deserted?
Are you effin kidding me? After all those years they want us to go back and do those lame ass dungeons again?

I am done with old dungeons, I want new things to fight.
I could care less about peki anymore after all those fabric.
They should burn Moon because it's damn annoying to fight him since shells do not stack.

thats why they (i think) want to redo some of the old dungeons a bit... maybe i misunderstood that, but thats what i thaught

[Another-Gay-Osamodas]

Those dungeons are fucking overly ridiculous for the majority of end game people. I know they're supposed to be challenges. But for fucks sake, they're basically impenetrable! I don't know that I'll EVER run the last few, as I am a single account player most of the time, and they have too few vulnerabilities to my Summons. Even Ankama realizes that about 3% of all applicable players would be able to access and make use of Frigost 3 as it currently stands. There's a major problem there, and I for one am very glad they intend to remedy it. I want challenges, but I don't want a mountain range in my way, either. Making episode 1 and 2 more viable and accessible is a WONDERFUL idea. Go for it, Ankama!

[Xu-Xu Furry Boobies]

Lotuz, on 07 February 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

Sorry for wasting your time, you all should keep illuminating our lives with the brilliancy that all of that brain power produces, your amazing and productive posts have show that only 3% of the characters that can access frigost have finished all dungeons because, obviously, everyone else is nothing but a complete bunch of retards

you ever tried recruiting random to pass frigost dungeon?

obviously you didnt

I did, for several months, offering my knowledge and fully epic lvl chars to help.
guess what, even with stating - clearly - that I only recruited normally equipped chars of the right lvl most of what I get was full wis leech whore who didn't even take 1second to read about the dungeon before.
I'm not very shocked those people can't acces frigost. Regular mono-accounters ready to put a minimum of brain power into the game are a endangered species...

edit: oh, and I forgot about the time I actually tried to run dungeon with real people, best I could ever get was 6. As soon as the plan wasn't me leeching them on 7 chars, lot of people "suddenly" lost interest xD lol

This post has been edited by Xu-Xu Furry Boobies: 07 February 2012 - 03:58 PM

[Mikemeplease]

Lotuz, on 07 February 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

Sorry for wasting your time, you all should keep illuminating our lives with the brilliancy that all of that brain power produces, your amazing and productive posts have show that only 3% of the characters that can access frigost have finished all dungeons because, obviously, everyone else is nothing but a complete bunch of retards

From what i can make out, pretty much yeah.

Also can we drop this theory that players who run full teams can somehow equip their chars easier than single-client players. All multiclienting does is saves you having to make dozens of friends in your timezone that you can go on runs with. That's it. Having 8 chars means you have to spend 8 times the ammount of time running dungeons to equip your chars to the proper standard. Wanna whine about only dropping 2 tails and a hamate in a couple of runs when you need 50 tails and 5 hamates? Try only dropping 7-8 tails and 2 hamates from a couple of runs and needing 400 tails and 40 hamates then we'll talk. All having multiple accounts does for you is give you more freedom and makes you independent in terms of what you do in-game. It doesn't reduce the ammount of work needed to achieve your goals, it just means that when you do achieve them you'll be doing so on a larger scale.

Think being a solo-accounter makes you poor? Try having my upkeep costs. Multi-accounters work for their independence, the idea that solo-accounters are somehow hard done-by and morally superior really gets on my tits.

Quote

Those dungeons are fucking overly ridiculous for the majority of end game people. I know they're supposed to be challenges. But for fucks sake, they're basically impenetrable! I don't know that I'll EVER run the last few, as I am a single account player most of the time, and they have too few vulnerabilities to my Summons. Even Ankama realizes that about 3% of all applicable players would be able to access and make use of Frigost 3 as it currently stands. There's a major problem there, and I for one am very glad they intend to remedy it. I want challenges, but I don't want a mountain range in my way, either. Making episode 1 and 2 more viable and accessible is a WONDERFUL idea. Go for it, Ankama!

The reason they're difficult is because you want to be able to beat them playing the same way you've played up until them. You can't beat CB, Korri or Kolosso by relying on summons because doing so makes you ineffective and clashes with the strategic requirements of each boss fight. When i ran Korri and CB especially i pretty much gutted and regeared the majority of my chars, even changing elements on several of them and having different set combinations to take advantage of initiative (having enu go high in the ini order to bribe Esurient in CB being a prime example) in order to win those fights. Part of the problem with solo-accounters is that the majority of them fail to understand that this is a team game. Rich irony that the people who understand this are the ones who only play with themselves.

To give you a point of reference, the only time i ever summon in kolosso is coney on the eni and bwork to trigger his vulnerable state. Even then i usually end up whipping bwork because it does something dumb. In CB coney aside i don't think i've ever actually used a summon once. You need to be versatile and adaptable to take on what is undoubtedly endgame content. If you're not good enough a player or prepared to make adjustments to your build and strategy to beat those dungeons then it's not Ankamas' fault.

This post has been edited by Mikemeplease: 07 February 2012 - 04:06 PM

[Mad-Scientist]

-Nichon-, on 07 February 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

2) Vastly Lower bonuses for a one man team (-75% at least), decrease it to about half for a two man team and then apply normal bonus for 3 and more people. This should finally reward mono-clienters/team play and people who only bring their 1 or 2 best chars to successfully run a dungeon, instead of bringing their stupid 900wis level 150 alt. If you think It's too harsh for multi clienters, well they would still be greatly advantaged really... Almost 100% chance to win, faster to run dungeon, Well oiled strategy, etc.
3) On top of the lower bonuses from 2), make some items only droppable if you have at least 4 players.

Not trying to kill multi-clienting, just balancing pros and cons a bit.

Now, I'm assuming they CAN detect people cheating with multiple virtual machines, etc... Didn't search a technical solution for them.

In this case can i get my 3rd through 10th account subbed for free. If I gain no benefit from playing so many character why would I be paying ankama an extra 50 usd a month.

[graydoo]

Personally I hope their solution is to finally redo xp gains to be less wis dependant. That is probably one of the biggest obstacles, nearly everyone is playing with a handicap.

Most people don't help others because anyone you don't trust is deadweight who will either kill you or decrease rewards.
With all the insta-kills and how challenges work, no one wants to take a risk if they don't have to.

When I saw the percentages I thought to myself, "I want to go help 7 random people through pingwin!". Then all my previous experience pointed out just how horrible that would likely be so I didn't take the idea any further.

This post has been edited by graydoo: 07 February 2012 - 04:03 PM

[winged-one]

-Nichon-, on 07 February 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

2) Vastly Lower bonuses for a one man team (-75% at least), decrease it to about half for a two man team and then apply normal bonus for 3 and more people. This should finally reward mono-clienters/team play and people who only bring their 1 or 2 best chars to successfully run a dungeon, instead of bringing their stupid 900wis level 150 alt. If you think It's too harsh for multi clienters, well they would still be greatly advantaged really... Almost 100% chance to win, faster to run dungeon, Well oiled strategy, etc.
3) On top of the lower bonuses from 2), make some items only droppable if you have at least 4 players.

Not trying to kill multi-clienting, just balancing pros and cons a bit.

+10000
Needed to keep this game interesting.
Btw: NO! Even if all hardcore multi accounters would ragequit because of this it would still be no problem because us multies are BAD CUSTOMERS, doing to much traffic for the same sub$ like casuals. (if you still pay $€ to sub beeing a multi, lol)

-Nichon-, on 07 February 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

Now, I'm assuming they CAN detect people cheating with multiple virtual machines, etc... Didn't search a technical solution for them.

Its possible to not only read IP but also MAC out of a client (http://www.adobe.com...interfaces.html)
- but -
its no problem to change a MAC adress of a virtual NIC in (i.e.) VmWare ^^
No clue how to avoid this...

Anyways, you would need at least 12gb ram (rather more) to run 8 machines at once, so there wont be that much full virtual machine users ^^
I am running close to hit this wall with 8gb and 3 virtual machines (4 client mode, more with only 8 GB is a no-go^^)

This post has been edited by winged-one: 07 February 2012 - 04:14 PM

[tar]

Another-Gay-Osamodas, on 07 February 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Those dungeons are fucking overly ridiculous for the majority of end game people. I know they're supposed to be challenges. But for fucks sake, they're basically impenetrable! I don't know that I'll EVER run the last few, as I am a single account player most of the time, and they have too few vulnerabilities to my Summons. Even Ankama realizes that about 3% of all applicable players would be able to access and make use of Frigost 3 as it currently stands. There's a major problem there, and I for one am very glad they intend to remedy it. I want challenges, but I don't want a mountain range in my way, either. Making episode 1 and 2 more viable and accessible is a WONDERFUL idea. Go for it, Ankama!

Can't tell if your trolling. Your mad that your summons can't beat the endgame bosses. Well no shit, if the bosses were so easy to beat that the AI of summons could do it, it would be an insult to us all.

[Mikemeplease]

There's no point in even speculating over a mutli-client nerf, why on earth would you cater to the part of your player-base that brings in $10/month per person by alienating the part of your player-base that brings in $80/month. Especially when what they do/the way they play has no negative effect whatsoever on anything other than being a convenient scapegoat whenever the $10/month crowd feel inadequate and fancy doing some shouting.

This post has been edited by Mikemeplease: 07 February 2012 - 04:11 PM

[winged-one]

Mikemeplease, on 07 February 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

There's no point in even speculating over a mutli-client nerf, why on earth would you cater to the part of your player-base that brings in $10/month per person by alienating the part of your player-base that brings in $80/month. Especially when what they do/the way they play has no negative effect whatsoever on anything other than being a convenient scapegoat whenever the $10/month crowd feel inadequate and fancy doing some shouting.

The point is: if you are running 8 clients and still sub for $, you are failing baldy. No offense, no insult - please don't shot me^^